Wednesday, July 02, 2008

God’s Wrath and the Mysterious Babylon: Part 3



A couple of verses to define the aforementioned point from Part 2: “This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.” James 1:27

… the church must not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed.” 1 Timothy 5:16

To bring this study to a close, I ask you, why is it, in light of Scripture, that the overwhelming majority of Believers go to no end to prove that surely the organized church cannot be this mysterious Babylon clothed in outward riches? I believe that the main reason we try so hard to make Babylon the “lost world” is because that takes all responsibility and the coming wrath of God off of us. Is it not easier to say, “Oh, God would never do such a thing to, what has been (errantly deemed) ‘His church’”? Friend, we must wake up in this hour and look at God’s Word with unveiled eyes! The false teachings of men must be torn down and the Word lifted high. Time and time again people want to place their eternal future in a “Pastor So and So told me once” belief system. This cannot be so! Absolutely all opinions and “I know the Bible says that, but…” statements will be burned up in the fire of God’s furnace. I ask you, what truth resides in your innermost being that will remain? What have you discovered for yourself? Diligently seek truth – diligently seek His face - diligently seek to be found wearing clean garments and pleasing in the sight of a holy God.

People ask, "How can a religion, a 'Christian' church that gathers in God's name be against God?" I ask you, who was it that had Jesus Christ crucified? Was it the evil and ungodly world? No, it was those that were deemed, by themselves more than anyone, to be the religious, the elect of God. Those who proclaimed their own message and elevated themselves as having all of the answers conspired to have Jesus, the very Son of God, put to death (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). To me it is very clear that the same is happening today. Programs are elevated and the Word is silenced. Worship is perverted and is all about making us feel good. Pastors are honored and, so called “laity” are taken advantage of. Fluff, opinions and ear tickling words are spoken and the Holy Spirit and power are forsaken. Everyone is confused about what is taught, what they don’t understand and what they really even believe - yet no answers are ever given and no one dares to ever question authority alongside the Scripture. Welcome to Babylon my friend. The church is confused and mixed and little to nothing is getting accomplished for the Kingdom of God!

I guess the best way to somehow do a wrap-up of all of this resides here: seek the Lord today, while He may be found. Tolerate no imitation. Tear down everything that exalts itself above Him and be found surrounded by a body of Believers that want Jesus above all else. The “real” church does exist, but you must look. Don’t be afraid to go outside of the Babylonian gates and seek out the ones who are striving to keep themselves completely unstained by the world. We are called to ultimately answer to one Shepherd and His name is Jesus Christ. I believe that the Lord, via His Word, has sent out a resounding call to His children. We are all individually responsible to know for ourselves His Truth. In the end, no blame can be moved onto another man or organization. It’s my prayer that you’ll take the time to set aside what you’ve likely always known and pursue absolute Truth from the Father. All that I’ve said is not flawless or perfect in any way, but one thing is sure - I’m diligently seeking the Lord for myself and will only ultimately allow what the Spirit confirms to remain. May we all be found cherishing the voice of our Father above all else. All Truth lies within His hands and He freely gives. Let’s look to the Father and leave behind the corrupted ways of men… in this place alone will He truly be found.

I want to end this with words from Jesus Himself, found in Mark 7:6-9: “And He said to them, Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men’. He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.


I want to make one thing clear - Babylon is a spirit and a mindset, not a “place”. We can be ruled by the ways of men and found not following God’s plans in any setting or occasion. A “service” that is all about man’s desires and precepts is just as wrong in a living room as it is on a church campus. It’s the spirit of Babylon that we must flee! We must always be cautious that we’re all prone to follow what we like and what is easy. I say let us run hard and fast into the fields of God’s order and plan! Let us abandon our ways, traditions and comforts and seek to be true followers of Jesus Christ.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

What can I say by YES and AMEN!!After much asking the LORD and seeking HIS truth on this subject, I too see Babylon as you have written. It is a spirit and a mindset. I am praying even for myself over the past couple of years that in no way, shape, form, or fashion, will i have even a big toe in the Babylonian mindset. Yes, it is hard when all my life this is what I thought was truth...Until I dug for myself.
For a year now I have been asking God to confirm this so that I could stand firm and warn people I love....two sundays ago, I sat down to pray with my husband,I asked him to read John 17 with me,we did. As I was reading, God spoke so clearly to me, "you can't come out of something (Rev. 18) if you are not in it (john 17). I ran into my study to then begin digging and cross referencing and the verse you broke down in Heb. 13 did it for me. (read it again, it is awesome) I thank God for loving me so much that even when I was not looking , He knew I needed to hear this. I will also say as Joel did in the last paragraph.I am only a Son of God who want to keep being conformed into the image of Jesus and I do not know it all....but this I can now stand firm on. do I sound excited...Yes, but only because I have struggled to understand this. On the other hand, I am saddened and grieved in my spirit because there are so many who do not even know they should question what they have been doing for hundrends of years.I am one who had to allow alot of deprograming to take place before I would even look at this. I can remember doing things in the church, all to PLEASE PEOPLE and then hoping that I had the right heart and that God wa pleased. I also thought that if i was "seen" it would somehow shine Christ to the many who did not know Him. I now before all of you ask for forgiveness of my ignorance and proclaim that I can no longer be ignorant because now I know the Turth. I know whose I am, and I know who I am, I must come with confidance and boldness and share with others as the Lord prompts. I know this will bring much humiliation to me and my loved ones..but nothing compared to the humiliation our Savior and LORD went through so that we can escape the fire of wrath.
PEOPLE GET READY JESUS IS COMING AND WE MUST BE PREPARED!!

thehoov143 said...

This was a wonderful series on the church. I would like to bring up that Babylon was actually a punishment of the Jewish people for not following his commands, he said follow my commands and you will keep you lands. THey didn't and King Neb. came and overtoook them. Hmmm interesting thought.

I agree you should look into something before diving in, churches shouldn't have thier own doctrine. Churches shouldn't have any mask or "laws" they have created, Acts tells us how to have a church.

"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men"

man that was right on!

Anonymous said...

We must flee from the spirit of Babylon... that was good post... I love the way you tied it all in at the end about the fact that it's not a place but a mindset. I have wrestled with this topic before and I am still wrestling with it, but what I have felt the Lord speak to me is that the Spirit Of Babylon is something we see corrupting our country,our churches, our families, and the nations of the earth. Because untimately it's a spirit that drives us away from the heart of God. In many ways it takes on the form of greed, the love of money, the love of this earth... "Kings of the earth have committed adultry with her"... they have oppressed the poor, while they sit in luxury... and in many ways we as americans have done the same exact things, alot of us in the church are greeding for money, choose to work for wealth before seeking the Lord, we oppress the poor because of our greed. We sit in the same pew as many struggling in the cycle of poverty and do nothing but "remember them in our prayers" and all across the world believers and non believers are being given to this deathly sick spirit of babylon that looks so beautiful today, but on the day of His return, all truth with be seen. We have to rid ourselves of this mindset and begin to seek the Lords heart for our lives. If your persuing wealth in retirement, going in debt to live with nice "things", if your struggling to make ends meet because of your brand new car or new flat screen tv that your going to be paying on for the next 5 years. Open your eyes and sell all you have and give it to the poor, use your time to spend with your family or friends,or maybe with people who need to know Jesus, throw your tv out, take all your retirement money and give it to those in need and begin to truly trust the Lord for all your "needs".

I'm telling you, we have to wake up and come out of this materialistic,luxurious,greedful, oppressive mindset of a "good" life and begin living lives of the Kingdom.

Joel good post... i'm thankful for your steadfastness and i'm looking forward to coming out with people like you and Kristen walking beside us.

Peace

Joel Spencer said...

anonymous 1: I'm glad that you're excited and saddened. To me, that summarizes God's view. We joyfully long for New Jerusalem yet hurt over the judgment that is coming to the earth.

Thanks for sharing!

Joel Spencer said...

the hoov143: God sure is strange like that, I think. The fact is, He will give us what we desire. If we desire to be ruled over and governed by men, we will be. If we want to pursue the lusts of our flesh, the lusts are what we will crave and satisfy. He truly is the only just One and that is so odd sometimes, compared to everything else that we know.

Joel Spencer said...

anonymous 2: I too believe that most of the entire earth is ruled by the spirit of Babylon. The difference is, we, the children of God should know better. We are supposed to live as you stated, forsaking all of the cares of this world and seek out the eternal.

Regarding the fact that Babylon is a "spirit", not a "place": (As I commented in Part 2) Although Bablyon is a religious spirit, the reality is, religions "home" is the church. It resides there more than anywhere else on the planet, therefore, to me they're inseparable.

Nonetheless, I want to focus on what I should be doing, not what others are or aren't.

Anonymous said...

It truly is a mystery how one starts off being betrothed to Jesus and slowly takes the lover of doctrine and tradition of men and call it god,She truly is drunk with the Blood of the saints

Anonymous said...

Her judgement cometh

Anonymous said...

Several things Joel, firstly Yes! There are many that 'wear' their Faith in God. God is the Word. It is for each soul to seek Jesus now! To go to their rooms and shut the door in private. He Is Coming. Praise God.

Next, You've hit on so much that is so, but even within, there is judgement that must be for God and God alone who knows the true "seen" workings of each soul.
This is satan's world, and we in it sinners. Churches and outside of Churches are made of the same, -the sinners that Our Lord and Saviour came for - all mankind. We may see in ready judgment the superfluous eye candy people, and unto even these we serve as He said. What we often do not see are the good works and lives of sacrifice within. Why? God is ALL, and His Will is being done - everywhere! Each soul has a mission. If a soul is called within a congregation in discernment and obedience to God's Will, Amen. Whilst you concentrate on the negativity and there is plenty of it, let us not forget all of the good done as well. Much, much good! God knows and sees ALL, and that is good enough. We must tear at our garment as we stand and lament before the Altar of God, and not stand close and praise ourselves as the Pharisees. We must give our Widows mite where we must give it, - and most importantly remember why. I have called it 'labels' in the past. It is skin deep Faith, and people seek not the Messiah. That is what our Faith IS. Jesus, as Joel has so well written. It may be satans world, and all shall be according to what Jesus told us. This is the most intimate and personal relationship in our life. We do not covet this relationship, we walk with Jesus in it everyday and learn, love, and go where? Into the World, that the whole earth is covered. A world filled with all sorts of people, and each made by God.

evil is at work everywhere. And God is All, and at work everywhere. When we go now and speak with Jesus, we need to ask "Am I where you want me Jesus?"
A Church is a structure, it is alive by the body of people in Christ within - each on the journey, each preparing and filling with oil the lanterns, making straight His Path. Let us speak the Word with Fire and With Love. 1. Love God above all, 2. and one another as we would wish to be loved. Wherever we be, let it be this moment at Jesus's feet in Trust of Him alone. If you see a wrong, say it. Go Disciples forth across the earth and speak to all. Some 'choose' to be 'of the world' - tell the Good news.
Peace be with you. Suzy

Joel Spencer said...

Suzy: Thanks for stopping by. I'm 50/50 with you on this one. I agree with much of what you said, but see some things much differently. #1: You said, "This is satan's world, and we in it sinners. Churches and outside of Churches are made of the same, -the sinners that Our Lord and Saviour came for - all mankind."

My response is simple, I am a follower of Christ, therefore I am not of this world. In regards to us all being "the same", Jesus was the firstborn of many, therefore, I am not no longer "just a sinner" like everyone else, I am a son of the living God.

#2: You said, "Each soul has a mission. If a soul is called within a congregation in discernment and obedience to God's Will, Amen. Whilst you concentrate on the negativity and there is plenty of it, let us not forget all of the good done as well. Much, much good! God knows and sees ALL, and that is good enough."

Agreed, God alone sees and knows all. But what He sees in regards to His church is more often than not found to be displeasing to Him. Time after time He states, as in Ezekiel, that what He sees in the secret place (darkness) is detestable in His sight. Does this seem negative? Yes, I know it does. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of the "church" follow blindly and live lives that displease the Lord, assuming He is OK with their vain attempts to worship Him. We must address that what the church does week in and week out is NOT even Scriptural! The entire system is flawed and rooted in the tradition of men. Tell me, how can a bad tree bear good fruit? The tree has been sown, rooted and is now producing fruit that will not last. If the tree is bad, let's cut it down - this isn't my opinion, it seems to me that it's Jesus' very own words.

Anonymous said...

We who follow the Messiah are not of this world. But we are in it.
St. John and elsewhere we learn that Faith without works is dead. Obviously. Like 'saying' that you love Jesus and living a life against that truth; in may ways this happens everyday. Gossip. Adultry, Slander, Love of Money. Love of Family more than God; Love of position. Love of self. Pride...
We are not of this world, but we are sinners, and we are All made by God, and He alone is righteous.
Not to say that all will be saved. Jesus is very clear on that.

There is much in Scripture; both old and new Testament - and we are to live by Every Word of God.Upon the Rock of Peter did Our Lord build His Church, and hell shall not prevail. Is wrong done - yes, everywhere. Does that make all Church goers bad Christians? Shame on you.

Your particular judgement is upon Church goers, and I say get thee back Joel! God and God alone is judge of each soul which He alone sees. There are many going through motions not in love with Jesus, and so too are there many that are, and spend their time before God in private and worship and help others to Listen to the Word.

Are you in condemnation of all Church goers the world over? In the deepest parts of Africa? 1. Love God with all of your being.
2. And love others as you would be loved.

I see great truth in what you have worked so hard for. I also see your particular personal issue with Churches, (we all have them)which is something that Joel has to work out with Jesus, like we all have to work on our proclivities. We are a people of Love, which is not weak, nor is it hateful and judgemental of people you do not know - that's God's job - to be God.

We were not put here to assume. Ex: you may make 'assumptions' on me from this, from my page, and you would have little of it if any correct.

To your last comment: Jesus will prune the trees and throw out what in His infinite Wisdom is chafe. Not Joel in his.
Jesus alone Saves; it is enough for us to work upon ourselves at His feet, in humility, than to spend time on how to lob off other people limbs. I am a Christian, the Lord God is my Savior. How should I treat a radical Muslim who attacks? What would Jesus do?
To the worst sinner, Our Lord was always kind! The Word is God. God Saves. By every word, not just those we shore up our own opinions with. And in what we do not understand, in Jesus' arms we do rest as little Babes do in the arms of their Father.
"Jesus make my heart like unto thine."

I would recommend a very old book.

The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis.

I love you Joel, and God loves you more. Do as Jesus says, for within the first two commandments all are covered as He came not to change them, but add unto them.

Above all is Love, in True love is the Fire -
In Christ, Suzy

Joel Spencer said...

Suzy: I could pick out nearly every statement that you made and create an alternate biblical view, but I really don’t desire to do that because it could go on for months. First and foremost, I don’t accept the “shame” that you want to place on me or the fact that you speak to me as if I’m the devil (“get thee back Joel”- are you serious?).

But let me ask you this, do you consider Paul to be judgmental? How about Noah? Ezekiel? Moses? What about Jesus? They all, as well as countless others in the Bible, stood firm on God’s Word and did not waiver. They made no excuses and did not soften the Truth, even as harsh as it seemed. In fact, many said as you have, "how dare you tell me such a thing!".

I’m curious if you believe that a great judgment is coming to God’s obstinate children? Do you believe that God will be “gentle” when such a time arrives or is the Word true when it says that God is also a Righteous Judge? The Bible states that Jesus was the “firstborn of many” and, although you will likely not agree with me, I firmly believe that I am one of the “many”. Therefore I will boldly proclaim that the church must rid herself of the spirit of Babylon. It is my duty as a follower of Christ to hear what the Spirit is saying in this hour and warn others.

Furthermore, I don’t want to "prune the trees", I’m simply holding up the branches and saying that we’d better take a look at them now. I am nothing apart from Christ – I am one who was lost, arrogant and selfish, yet He came and rescued me. Any good thing within me is from Him alone.

I have absolutely no agenda to lift myself above another, but I will not waiver from declaring the coming judgment of God upon His people. I would be disobedient if I were to remain silent.

Suzy, I honestly thank you for causing me to dig deep and examine the Word to define Truth. You have assured me even greater that I am in fact moving against the grain as Jesus did, and that excites me to no end.

Gabe said...

More truth Joel; straight from the heart. Keep speaking your heart my friend, regardless of those who would disagree. What you speak is truth to you and it really is irrelevant what others think.

Why do you think there are thousands of denominations across the world? If today's church were truly sound, those thousands of different groups wouldn't exist; they would all be on the same page. Since they're not, that spells confusion and shows that the church as a whole has been a failure. Like it has always been, there are a remnant of believers who refuse to compromise.

This remnant doesn't believe in sanctifying bad behavior with the classic Jesus blood wash to get themselves [they think] clean. They live and walk the scriptures of the Creator and most have left Babylon [the church] and have been satisfied with aligning themselves with small groups whose hearts towards the Father are like their own.

People aren't going to find truth from the scriptural illiterates behind the pulpit.Yes, they are illiterate; theological cemetery graduates who were programmed to repeat what they were taught.They then teach the masses bad doctrine and it spreads like cancer to the masses.Unfortunately, church folks have become experts at bad doctrine and have a hard time with being challenged with scriptural proof, only to argue without researching what they've been told, opting to argue what their pastor told them.

Once again Joel, keep searching for that truth and ask for it daily.Truth can be painful as it says in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 1:18
“For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.”

Joel Spencer said...

Gabe: I agree with much of what you said, especially, "aligning themselves with small groups whose hearts towards the Father are like their own." That is where I've found ekklesia with others as Acts defined it.

The Holy Spirit will move where unfettered faith and expectation reside. May we see heaven come to earth via our desire to diligently seek the Father as one body in Jesus Christ.

Justin said...

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

Christ guide our hearts, as You alone know us & show the sources we draw from; inevitably, our understanding is darkened without our conscious approval, yet moreso we are responsible. You are the Light of the world; what fierce confusion we bring without Thy glimmer unto repentance.

What truth has been spoken here I cannot rightly justify or disqualify. Christ alone can comprehend His handiwork in & of the heart at all times--& certainly on this meager template of communication--yet the certainty of scripture must be received with increasing submission & the testimony of truth given place as surely as He, the Truth, has His place in every detail of eternity.

If the sheep just want to know if they are in the pasture that won't get toasted, then the sheep are already lost, we agree? If Christ is simply about avoiding hell, then good works are enough. Yet we should know beyond doubt He is life, not just the means of escaping death.

Regardless of the circumstance in which this whirlwind strikes you, set Your hearts before the Lord as always. "Organized church" is no less inherently wicked than an unorganized version (which, Joel, you somewhat stated). Ezekiel 34 is ripe with admonishments of poor shepherds, all falling short, who not only do the punching bag American status quo we've apparently all observed--called "wool-stealing"--but are guilty of the collective neglect of scattering the flock. We do not follow these men as our true Shepherd--but neither do we reject every form of teaching in the suspect position of expecting every tree called a pulpit to only cultivate plants of pure self-interest. Without the body, the CHURCH, I am nothing. With what stirred heart did Paul write those letters? Was it not for those groups in so many diverse places, who met both in the temple & broke bread house to house? Indeed, the judgment of God is coming, indeed the day will come as a snare upon the whole Earth--it will reveal the hearts of men, it will pierce all things hidden & God's purity & justice will humble the Sun with it's luminescence.

&--quite possibly in the full, simple expression of my ignorance--a call to dispersion from mass congregation as opposed to an ingrown, personally & collectively testifiable call to repentance will reap--given man's constant flaw--the same pendulum result: man before Christ is in utter depravity; man forsaking Him is worse.

I see the schism you see. & yes, just as Israel, in unfaithful blindness, produced Islam from it's own loins I believe some of those who will one day turn us over to earthly authorities will have walked right beside us as Judas & John did: hearing the same words, knowing OF the same Man. If the whistle is blown to warn, then blow it with all the saving energy Christ has imbued; I think that is your desire. But these nebulous "moving against the grain" remarks are not any guarantee of Christ-likeness, nor are they a call of repentance, nor do they mean anything at all. We are to imitate God as dear children, not as youths of wrath. It sickens me to observe that a supposition of insight may seem enhanced by this likewise "blown about" course of assurance by disgruntlement, & rides with a drawn sword against a group of people who it is so boastfully proclaimed are in utter darkness.... Yet I know that stance with dreadful intimacy because it was once & with foolish ease can become my very own. The "Show & Sell" of the brother's blindness. Yet we remember that every call & rebuke & "punishment" was an invitation to Himself & we are the newest recipients of His grace on the Earth. Of course there are a thousand denominations & of course it is ridiculous: we stopped knowing the Man. We are indeed ripe for precise & overarching repentance from every aspect of our wicked ideals. Yet Jesus is not a bomb shelter, He is the Door, the Vine & most certainly not impressed with our ancillary comments. To say that a church membership means your target is greater is not accurate. To say that love of Christ & a place beside unknowing sinners are not equal is also false, just as a telling someone to "go find truth for yourself" is an irresponsible suggestion for a shepherd. We can't bring light to a person then back away & say "you did this to yourself." & with emphatic Amen I agree that the Word has told us of the complete deception that is gripping the throat of mankind. Surely it walks beside us. Surely it knows that we are easy prey without Him. & surely three posts on a blog could only hope to be seeds from His hand. Hearts don't come to life easy.

Joel, seek Him. The air outside the walls is no more redeemed than the air within, the cause of Christ not therein constricted simply because of the construct. You don't save someone from a decrepit building by lighting it on fire or describing their predicament. & the virility of rebellion is not of value to Christ. I don't think you're walking in it, much the opposite, I see you laboring to give Him the place He deserves in your heart. PRAISE GOD. Just remember those who follow you are responsible for (both of the letters to Timothy are wonderful opposite Ezekiel with Christ in between, aren't they?), remembering a likewise ravenous darkness in this nation today is the youthful lust of self: sustainability, forbearance, knowledge, discernment, assurance--it never ends. It is as damaging a false doctrine as Jesus=designer jeans or brimstone banter without knowing Him.

"Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities. Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden." 1 Timothy 5.10-25 NKJV (which apparently is the most horribly inaccurate one of them all. O, it never ends.)

ENOUGH TALK FROM ME

Anonymous said...

Joel,

This is a wonderful series that all in the Body of Christ need to hear. The truth is still the only thing that will set people free. You've spoken the truth in great love.

I admire your courage. Stands like this produce great humilation.
But the great blessing of eating of the tree of humilation is that it produces great humility. Humility is produced by eating of the tree of humilation like Jesus Christ did.

Babylon ... a confused gate to Heaven ... a confused way to salvation. Come out of her MY PEOPLE. We can't come out of the world but we can come out of organized/institutionalized/program based / pastor led / clergy-laity
relgion. We can leave many places where churches have become "entertainment and blessing centers" worshipping the Self God and centering on the platform of blessings, prosperity and gain.

Religion or true relationship? That's the current question. For two thousand years the organized religious system has had opportunity to bring change and the Kingdom of God into this lost
world. Bigger buildings, larger
organizations and elevating men have left those of the world and true Christians sick of the current things we call "God's outpouring". The marketing and entertainment aspects of organized
religion are leaving people empty and unfulfilled. People are seeking Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

Where is repentance? Where is holiness? Where is revival? Where are the true things of God?

The traditions and doctrines of men make the Word of God to NO EFFECT. Where do you find the traditions and doctrines of men?
In the religious system? Where do you find the religious system? In most churches.

God has departed most churches and its sad that so many don't even know He has gone. It's business as usual with building programs,
exciting services, self-help programs, staff led activities and
let's meet and eat times. Where is Jesus Christ in all this madness?

Babylon (from Babel... Genesis 10 and ll) was man's original effort to reach the heavens by their own building efforts (a tower instead of a new sanctuary or family life center). Current Christianity says if we can build a big enough tower (building) and have enough people (members) we can gain the approval of God and reach Heaven.

It was man's way to attempt to reach God apart from God's plan.
This is still the truth today.
Just as God separted the Babel
Tower people into different languages then ... He's separating
the Bable Tower people today into
denominations.

There's nothing new under the sun.
The voice of the Holy Spirit is calling God's people out of Babylon (organized/institutional/
man centered / program based religion). The ones who "have an ear" are hearing and they are coming out. The mass exodus from the organized church every week is
like the multitutes departing the
original Babylon.

The beautiful buildings, the art and music, the great oratory, the
comfortable life of Babylon (the organized religious system) no longer compares to those whose hearts burn to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

To stay in Babylon is to forfeit the opportunity to rebuild Zion.
Forfeit the opportunity to return to Jerusalem. To forfeit the City of God ... where praise and peace
fill the environment.

Come out or stay in ... that's the question. The true voice of the Holy Spirit is shouting, COME OUT!
COME OUT! COME OUT!

Joel,
you've said the truth ...now stand upon the truth and allow the truth to set the ones who will hear FREE.

Bablon is falling ... is falling ... is falling and man's effort will be unable to keep it alive.

Joel Spencer said...

Justin: Thanks for posting your comment. Although you said much and delivered it with thoughtful rhetoric, I’m not really sure I see what your point being made within it all is.

To clarify a bit, I am not isolated within my home forsaking “body life”. In fact, as I told a brother recently, I am now, for the first time in thirty-plus years of “attending church”, in koinonia relationship with other believers – and it has nothing to do with any organization or building… we are being the body. I have found body life, according to what the Word says it should be, to have nearly zero common attributes as the organizational/positional church. So again I reiterate, I have not, nor will I ever isolate myself in arrogance and ignorance, so as to say I’m “going it alone”. I need others, I need correction, I will forever be in need of fellow Believers.

Along the same lines, you stated that "go find truth for yourself" is an irresponsible suggestion for a shepherd.” Perhaps I should have stated it further as, “Rely on no other to define what is Truth and what is not for you.”. The vast majority simply hear, casually agree or disagree and then move on – never looking into the Word for themselves and taking any responsibility or ownership. Does the Word not say to “study to show yourself approved” ? It is my responsibility to seek the Word for truth for myself, for the Lord is my Shepherd and the Holy Spirit my Guide – I long to be approved by Him above all else.

You also said, “But these nebulous ‘moving against the grain’ remarks are not any guarantee of Christ-likeness, nor are they a call of repentance, nor do they mean anything at all.” A guarantee? No, you are correct, they are not. A sign that I’m becoming more Christ-like? Yes. For as I begin to get more criticism from the religious, then I’m encountering exactly what my Saviour did. Questioning the ways of men and denouncing religion ultimately put Him on the cross. To you, perhaps this means nothing, but to me, it means everything.

Finally, you also stated, “Joel, seek Him. The air outside the walls is no more redeemed than the air within…” - Justin, I am seeking Him with all that is within me and as far as the air goes, I implore you to come out and take a few deep breaths of the pure and undefiled air… it is as sweet as Jesus Himself.

Anonymous said...

joel,

i've got just one question or something for you dig into...

Revelation 18:3
"For ALL the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adultries. The KINGS OF THE EARTH comitted adultry with her and the merchants of the earth grew RICH from her excessive LUXURIES."

My question is...
If we're saying that babylon in found in organzied church...then why don't we see all the nations or all the kings of the earth in organized religion.

1.All the nations don't go to organized church, nor do many kings of the earth go to organized church.

Where does our assumption that Babylon is the American Christian Religious system, straight from verse three we find something that could completely counter act that assumption...

what are you thoughts?

I love you joel. Keep it up

Eric

Joel Spencer said...

anonymous: I'm with you. I pray that poeple will understand and somehow see my heart within these words. My ONLY purpose is to love the Lord above all else, urge others to seek the Word for Truth and see a people rise up and worship the Lord as He deems acceptable.

Thanks for reading!

Justin said...

Please forgive my excessive use of words. I should make them few.

My heart was simply to examine what you've stated, which I seem to mostly wholly & joyously agree with, & partner it with a few questions of "what happens next?" I too have only found the life of knowing Jesus & seeking Him as the only pure source just these past two years through a like body that you describe: a genuine community that boldly proclaims His love & authority, warns each other, admonishes the brethren, that realizes we walk on a knife edge & must revel in His rebukes, chastising & submit fully to His utmost heart, knowing & seeking the fruit He produces. I seek only to test the spirit of this "counsel" you've offered. Yes, we have an appalling heritage in this nation--I really, completely agree with the assessments stated as Father has begun to open His children's eyes. Perhaps I have understated the harlot we are playing, but if you aren't seeing it then your posts won't make any sense anyway.

However, an ideology that believes every 10:30 Sunday service is fraught with Babylon interests is not sound. It is a time of meeting & the place is indeed in a building, but we are not to rely on that gathering apart from the continuation of a steadfast life. "So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart." It is the encounter of Jesus everyday that gives us anything to offer men at any place or time. Praise Christ, I rejoice that you have such a body.

I still disagree with your profession of "For as I begin to get more criticism from the religious, then I’m encountering exactly what my Saviour did. Questioning the ways of men and denouncing religion ultimately put Him on the cross." What put Christ on the cross was His obedience to His Father. "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." I remind you, dear brother whom I do believe is seeking the same Man with increasing, blossoming resoluteness, that we know the evidence of Him in our lives: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."

We must call the brethren out--TO LIFE WITH JESUS, not just "outdoors." I agree, I agree, I agree. But it is with a joyous humility, ourselves knowing first the same sins we were in, the same darkness, remembering "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts."

Slap me around. I love this, if we're getting iron on iron.

Joel Spencer said...

Eric: Great question Eric! For starters, I want to be clear that I'm not stating the "assumption that Babylon is the American Christian Religious system". Babylon is a spirit that, if it could be seen residing in any one place the most, is found indwelling organized religion. It’s imperative that you know this in order to understand what my point is to all of this. It’s much broader than an “American Church” issue. It is, to me, wherever the ways and traditions of men are favored over the exaltation of God and men are seeking to lift high their ways and preferences, attempting to please God how they choose. There is widespread, worldwide immoral worship.

After taking only an hour or so to overview Revelation 18:3, it seems to further prove my view. To avoid an entirely new article, I’ll address key points within the verse.

#1 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality”. The entire earth is filled with religion. There is not a nation, a people, where it does not reside. Whether it’s Buddhism, Catholicism or Christianity, every nation and people has “slept with” the spirit of Babylon in order to reach or surpass God on their own terms. All nations.

#2 “The kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her”. Kings are leaders. Do they have to be true “kings”? The Word states that I am a “king and a priest” (Rev. 5:10), yet in regards to earthly government, I am neither. Take a look around and look at our leaders today - especially “Christian leaders”. Secular and religious lines are becoming virtually invisible – look at men such as Joel Osteen and countless others somehow viewed as “spokesmen for Christianity”. They are kings of the earth, leaders of their day, governed by the spirit of Babylon and they’ve become drunk on her mixed wine.

#3 “The merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” Sensuality here means “luxury”. Chapter 18, verse 9 states, “ the kings of the earth… lived sensuously with her”. They lived luxuriously with her. Again, the mixed multitude lived together. Stop by your local Christian bookstore, read the best-seller list, the religion known as Christianity has whored herself out to the world and it’s become rich off of her doing so. Also, merchants in John’s day were more widely known as ones who were traders as opposed to retailers. In other words, they exchanged and traded things. Is this not exactly what we see in the mixing? Again, the “religious” and the “secular” are becoming more and more indistinguishable – a result of Leaders of the church and leaders of the world alike living together in luxury and indulgence without any defining qualities to set them apart!

The good news: Revelation 1:5 states that “Jesus Christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth”! Praise God! When all is said and done and what we have wrong and right is passed, Jesus alone will rule and reign!

Anonymous said...

good response man!

I also want to open up the possibility that this is a broader,more evident,closer "spirit" than what we are,without intention,making this out to be.

I believe the spirit of babylon ties into 1.)cost of discipleship
2.)sharing in the sufferings of Jesus and 3.)loving the Lord our God with all our hearts above ALL else and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I believe we all can get lost in things that distract us from the true core of the issue. And the issue is "Love" and where that "Love" is bestowed.

I don't think it has to do with whether we attend or don't attend a religious service. There are many devout cathilic's who are certainly not living in Babylon...like for instance Mother Teresa... (which it isn't my place to judge whether she's giving in to the spirit of babylon or not), but by the fruit of her life we can see that it would ridiculous to try and place the tag "religious" on her. My point being that this isn't an organized religion issue...it's deeper than that, because relationship goes beyond religion and tradition. For instance the first church... went to temple daily because it was a tradition and because they were in intimate relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit and that relationship went far beyond their attendance at the temple and their breaking bread in houses.

I honestly and peacefully believe that there are people all across our country and the nations who do things we would deem as "religious" who truly have a deep and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We're making the issue organized religion, or institutional, or american, or clergy laity, we are making all these the issue when the issue isn't that at all. If it were we would hear more about it out the mouth Jesus himself. The issue... is true discipleship, true following, truely intimate relationship with Jesus and wherever this lacks...we will find all things that draw us away from the heart of God, including the spirit of Babylon.

You may find the spirit in many places... from living rooms to mega churches, but that's not the issue the way to free ourselves from the worry of whether we caught up in babylon or not... is to with all hearts go after Jesus and pay the cost, suffer with him and love our neighbors as ourselves and we in the least bit can do these things with a pure heart and encourage our brothers to do the same... I believe we won't have to worry that much about this idiotic spirit of babylon which was overcome through the cross.

luv ya dude.
Eric

Joel Spencer said...

Justin: OK, I think I understand your view a bit better now. Thanks for clarifying.

I completely agree, Jesus willingly laid down His life and absolutely no one took it from Him. I meant, as it played out here on the earth, the religious are in fact the ones that played the key "enemy of the Messiah" role in God's plan.

Thanks for coming back and posting again!

Joel Spencer said...

Eric: The issue is deep, as you stated. When it's a spirit matter, it goes to the deepest part of men as all actions and beliefs originate there.

To use a metaphor to prove my point about organized religion's relationship with Babylon: If I know that there's a glass of water that's half pure water and half poison, you won't find me even sipping that tainted water! That's how I see it. Will I ever attain perfectly clean and pure? Not until I meet Jesus, but until then, I'll continue to stay away from the water that I know has been contaminated.

With that being said, I agree with much of what you've said. I believe that via all of this study and discussion, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the spirit of Babylon is much more prevalent in many places than I had in mind when I opened all of this up.

Nonetheless, it is a journey - a journey to continually rid ourselves of all that hinders us from walking intimately with Jesus Christ. Thanks for checking me out and addressing some great questions.

Gabe said...

You’ll find my friend that there are many things we agree upon; some of which we won’t. Having said that, I’ve found in my own journey that it doesn’t matter what one believes, that is truth to them. I’ve seen my share [done it myself] of those who have criticized others for their belief system more out of ignorance than real knowledge or wisdom. I do my darnedest to not do that. Truth to someone is their treasure and shouldn’t be stolen away.

I do like what Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said; "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." All of us in the past have become experts at opinions, but we’ve all also become lazy at researching and finding facts. That’s why when searching the scriptures, we should leave our doctrines and traditions out of it, let alone what we’ve been taught by man which has most likely been a lie.

Those that seek truth are the ones who are diligent in their actions. That’s why when I stumbled on your blog you got my attention.

I do agree with you on your analysis of the Babylonian mindset. I believe that you’re spot on with your opinion. Having said that, I don’t agree with the phrase “Babylon is a spirit”. I humbly disagree Joel, because honestly, it can’t be found in the Word. Sometimes people will label something evil as a particular [spirit] name and it can’t be found. I humbly encourage you to search the Word for this spirit as you call it. I’ve found that if something isn’t in the Word [in plain text], it can’t be proven to exist. Just because it’s been taught for years doesn’t mean it’s factual.

With that said, I do believe that Babylon is a decision [mindset as you put it] that reveals the true heart of a man/woman. Proverbs 27:19 says “As in water face reflects face, So a man's heart reveals the man.” Babylon can be likened to a city in which the true heart of a man drives him toward or steers him away. Would you go to Babylon or Jerusalem? I also believe that an area [city/society] can be likened to a place such as Babylon. Today’s western society is a good example of Babylon; but again, there is a remnant within modern Babylon who are uncompromising and wish only to live for the One who created them.


I like your attitude concerning going against the doctrines and traditions of men. Jeremiah 17:5 says; “Thus says the Lord: Cursed is the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. Putting trust in man can cause one to be separated from his heavenly Father. That’s why I have a very small group of believers who have proven themselves over time that I’ve become close to. Yes, we make mistakes with one another, but we’ve all become acquainted with the heart of the people which keeps us close.

Joel Spencer said...

Gabe: Thanks again for being a part of the discussion. There are truly myriads of mysteries for us to search out.

Anonymous said...

You are right Joel!! I am so glad God has awakened me to the fact that the religious system not only does not have the answers, but they follow the ways of man to find God. God's Way is so easy, it is intimacy with Him, getting to know God's attributes and character. To also find others to fellowship with who's main aim is to 'Love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, mind and strenth." This means God always comes FIRST. My desire is to eat the meat of the Word of God, not only milk or to be spoon fed. Always checking out what I hear, or read and see if it agrees with the Word of God. That does not mean proof texting [finding one verse to prove my point] but really finding out what the Word of God is saying.
When I answer to my Lord someday, no pastor teacher or even my mate will be standing there to varify my spiritual walk. I will stand alone. In light of that very fact, my heart's desire is to walk pleasing to my Lord Jesus every day.
Keep going Joel, keep pursueing the truth.

Mark said...

Joel - First thanks for checking out my blog. I found the whole Babylon thing here very interesting. Definitely something I want to think about. I have been reexamining all my beliefs. I hadn't come across this one yet.

Anonymous said...

I'm so thankful that you have dived into this study and sought truth for yourself. As the last anonymous commenter said, you haven't found one verse to tie all of your beliefs to. You have simply looked at the Word, divided it with the Word and God revealed truth to you.

Bravo! Not for what you have done but for what God has done. He has hidden mysteries just for us to find them. We may not like what we find, but we didn't write the Word, He did. People can argue and say they don't believe, but ultimately they're not believing the Word of God. To rightly divide the Word is a gift. And I know that this discussion has caused you to dig deep and come to more of an understanding of these truths.

I know that sometimes I don't like what the Word says or don't necessarily agree with what someone teaches me. But I ask God for wisdom and then ask Him to reveal truth to me. Sometimes, though, my personal beliefs get in the way of His wisdom. If I'm willing to completely set aside my thoughts, my deeds, my beliefs and seek His ways, then and only then will I find His wisdom breaks through. Otherwise, I'm mixing the wines within me. It's not necessarily the wines without that are the hardest to break away from. It's those that challenge our very core, our inner man, that we tend to hold onto harder than others.

Thank you for presenting the question. May you continue to hear from and seek the One who speaks truth only.

Joel Spencer said...

Anonymous #10: Intimacy with Jesus - the solution to every question, doctrine and need in our lives. That is what I want more than all else!

Mark: Thanks for stopping by! Feel free to join in whenever you wish.

Anynoymous #11: You said, "If I'm willing to completely set aside my thoughts, my deeds, my beliefs and seek His ways, then and only then will I find His wisdom breaks through." This is key when studying Scripture is it not? We cannot look at it through a personal view or approach it in order to prove our agenda or convictions. God alone defines Truth - and even at the end of my days, only He knows it perfectly.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I am totally serious Joel; and not very good apparently at getting my point across well. I agree with your blog; not with your inclusive condemnation of billions of human souls who have walked this earth, and lives are unknown and shall remain so. Duped with Church - probably. Never the less, God is in charge even in the dark places given to do their worst. And in those places have I met some of the simplest, and perhaps most humble and holy people I have ever met. Majority - no. But angels unawares - absolutely. There shall be no black belts in God. It is a truism that the more we learn the less we know. Here is some of what I know, God Is Absolute and in charge, He that is All. It is in going lower that we go higher. Humility. Yes, we must call evils. I have done it myself in Church on councils that were not about Jesus Christ, and likely made enemies, don't care - what was happening was clearly wrong. I called the wrong wrong and corrected the thinking - I did not bury the sinners, not my job. I've my own splinters to assault. upon deeper contemplation.

I know that God is in charge, I Trust Him as all shall be as He said. There are bad people in good places, and good people in bad ones. I will call an evil and evil, but will not judge unknown human souls,countless for 2000 years. Many today have never missed a day of church in their 70-80 years. I have attended many kinds of Churches.

We are God's Children, sons and daughters. There is only One Son of God Almighty. Jesus Christ, and He is the strongest, kindest, most beautiful... there are no words. Well, perhaps - He is merciful, even in correcting or scolding me.
That's a clue to me about how to treat his other children, whom I must in keeping with His Word, put above myself; even so far as to love my enemies that God sends the rain and sun down upon as well. Permit - no. Love, yes.

That is my point. There is a lot of 'programming going on', I know great pain here myself, as only Jesus knows. But I shall stay the course and people must be warned to listen to "No man". Turn to and cling to Jesus and Jesus alone. Jesus spoke on the Church, that He created. Where else would evil concentrate? Every Word of God. I suffer every Sunday. So do others, who sit and see what is happening, but stay the course until it can be stayed no longer...

Have to go, hope this is clearer. Sometimes hard to make come from the heart to the mouth - ('the toilet of the face'). The same mouth that also praises God, I wish not to condemn people but to speak Truth kindly and fearlessly. I too see what is coming and find trial in Keeping the Law of God, the Words of my Master and serving in places of darkness. I am a seer, perhaps never an orator - but I love; Him most of all and so I will serve in Truth but also in kindness; even the dead who I must ponder are more the "Living" than we at times... Jesus is the only Thing I am sure of anymore, I think of how He treats me and speaks to me - so I return to the child's heart I think. One thing Jesus said to me Joel with great sternness, (if only you knew the depths of my pain and fury in it) -was "Do not assault my Priests." Any priest, any minister, pastor of Christ. I cannot "know them", and HE shall handle them, as He shall handle us all. Am I clearer? Love, Suzy

Joel Spencer said...

Suzy: It would seem that we see the same "problems" yet have very different approaches to our response. You said that you choose "stay the course and warn until you can stay no longer" and I chose to remove myself and warn because I already reached that place that I could stay no longer. You also said that you "suffer every Sunday", I live in the peace and the joy of the Lord on Sundays, free to be a son of the Most High.

I'm looking to "bury" noone - again, I'm desiring for the multitudes, that we're agreeing are being "duped", to step back and simply take a look at what they cling so dearly to.

I will continue to state that phrases like "(they) never missed a day of church in their 70-80 years" means absolutely NOTHING in the Kingdom of God. Nonetheless, we can only follow what the Holy Spirit reveals to us personally. I pray that Jesus unveils eyes and opens ALL of OUR hearts to see all that He is in the days to come.

Anonymous said...

I keep coming back to the fact that if we're supposed to be like Jesus, then if He didn't spend time in the synagogues, why should we? What was it that He called the pharisees? Oh yeah, a brood of vipers. Hmm. I'm not saying that there aren't good people in pulpits all around the world. But if we're to be Jesus with human skin on, then why do we spend our time, money and energy on something that He didn't do. And very pointedly spoke against it.

Oh, and another thing... if we're supposed to be like Jesus, then why are we going to "meet Him" every Sunday in a place that man has built? The organized church is a man-made creation by Constantine. Last time I checked, Jesus didn't tell the boys to go out and build a sanctuary, hire a preacher and a worship leader, and put pews in for the peeps to hang out once or twice a week.

May I be more and more like Him and less like what everyone else deems to be normal Christianity. (Which, by the way, the word Christian is a pagan word as well. Given to us by non-believers.)

Good job for standing out!

Joel Spencer said...

Anonymous #12: To be more like Him and less like anything else - a great plan if you ask me.

I've recently thought alot about what it means to posses a "Christian" identity. I want to be a follower of Christ and not a mere Christian. It is more than a name tag or association, it is an entire way of life.

Anonymous said...

Yes, more like Him. Master was brought to the Holy Temple by His earthly parents for the circumcision. Master taught in the Temple with Knowledge that did astound them. His Uncle a keeper of the Temple, to burn incense. Master flipped the tables in anger at the Temple and said - "Not In my Father House!" And upon Peter did He build His Church, (Universal) and no matter what comes and what is done, it is His house. Yes I suffer on Sunday for what I see, and when the tables come I will flip them. But I shall keep Holy the Sabbath and remind all that it is my Father's House. When I take Him in the Eucharist I am beyond words. "Take this All of you and eat, for this is My body given up for you." Have you seen my blog on Lanciano? Documented Scientific investigation. I may stand with 100 who do not believe, but I know All is His. Jesus did not speak against the Temple, but against the hypocrites, the Pharisees and their actions. Holy and haughty, not humble. I see Jesus at the Altar, for the Altar is His as are all things, and hell shall not prevail. The pagans anger and say the Christian stole this and stole that. All is Gods and has always been Gods. 2000 years ago God died as a man for His children and set the record straight from those who worshipped idols, oaks, stones and tree stumps. Their own power to make lightening flash and lower creations hostile to man and adored and worship them as gods. God loves and calls all. The time will come when perhaps I can no longer go, and I do not worry for he shall feed us. I am sad, yes He is with us always and everywhere as everything is His, but to be in Father's House and adore Him in this special way is precious and from Him. How precious is the widow in the Temple who gave everything of herself, and sad the rich who did not give first fruits back to God who gave us everything, but skimming's.

Joel Spencer said...

Anonymous #13 (Suzy, I assume): Your statement "And upon Peter did He build His Church, (Universal) and no matter what comes and what is done, it is His house" is wherein my disagreement with you lies. God and His Word alone define what is His house, not the name, denomination or viewpoints of men.

I could tickle peoples ears with messages about prosperity and blessing, gather a crowd, rent a building, put a sign out front that says "God's House" and it be NOTHING whatsoever like God's plan for ekklesia ("church")! Nothing!

For what feels like the hundredth time this week I say again, we MUST adhere to what God desires and what He deems acceptable, not our own desires and preferences!

Anonymous said...

By Every Word of God. Every Word, not just those that support our wants.
"is wherein my disagreement with you lies. God and His Word alone define what is His house,

Correct!

"not the name, denomination or viewpoints of men."

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar? Jesus told you the name. Or are you saying not These Words - "Upon this rock (Peter) I build my Church." People in Christ. Called (Universal) - Greek: Catholic. Peter first Vicar of Christ - until his murder in Rome. Saint Paul of Tarsus convert, leader of the Church...People of God who gather and cover the earth with the good news. "Take this ALL of you and eat, this is My Body." How many ignore these Words from Our Lord and Savior too?

Jesus built One Church - you call 'them' denominations - He did not build them. People who wanted their ideas, beliefs, beefs, vanities, wants, and opinions followed created them, one by one by one and called it righteous.

By Every Word of God. We follow the Commandments and do as Jesus said.

"For what feels like the hundredth time this week I say again, we MUST adhere to what God desires and what He deems acceptable, not our own desires and preferences!"

Yes, Exactly. In Behavior and Obedience. And that is how many persevere. Trusting in God always even in mistakes, but trying to be Obedient to what God Desires and has so said.
Pax Christi, Suzy

Joel Spencer said...

Suzy: With this I thank you for your input and discussion. Although we seemingly see the same things, it's clear that we have very different responses to it.

Although I'm not closing the door to the discussion, I feel we're beginning to restate the same facts that we started with. So, I'm moving on and I bless you as you go on further in Him. May we all look to God alone to be verified and approved.

Anonymous said...

And you my Brother. May God Bless you with His Eternal Peace; and may we Glorify Him, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Forever and Ever. Amen. Suzy

Tamela's Place said...

All i can say is Amen! You have written the Truth so well my friend! God bless you!

thehoov143 said...

wow, joel i think this series has turned into a book. as in alot of comments. Good that you are creating good conversation.
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:5.

You arer doing well Rev. Spencer!!

Joel Spencer said...

Tamela: Thanks for stopping by!

thehoov143: I agree, it's been a great topic of discussion. Rev.? Haven't you been paying attention? ;)